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  #21  
Old 12-29-2016
Yvonne* Yvonne* is offline
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Originally Posted by JustinAtAce View Post
Can't run the lockup converter in NHRA. They still run hard with a converter and good back half numbers but they could be a lot better with a clutch.
Obviously lock ups are not legal neither was the boost he was running at SCSN. I hesitate to banter back and forth with clutch guys (again) LOL but the numbers in the last few years tell the tale.

The official MPH record for NHRA Pro Mod is 258.71 set in 2011 by Melanie Troxel. Back in February of this year (2016) Coughlin ran 259 at the warm up event in NHRA trim. He did that with less bore space, smaller valves and less boost than Troxel ran but at the SAME weight. That’s how good the converter technology has gotten. Whatever advantage they’d gain (which again I don’t believe there is an advantage in this case) would be lost in a myriad of problems the biggest of which would be lack of consistency. No matter how good the clutch guy is, you won't improve on consistency. And they would likely slow down on the tree, something turbo drivers do not need either. At this point they aren't looking to up mph and get hit with a rule change either IMO.

If clutches were really the way to go, the 1/8 turbo guys would have been all over that by now. The converter tech especially the lock ups are now and will continue to be the #1 choice.
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  #22  
Old 12-29-2016
JustinAtAce JustinAtAce is offline
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Originally Posted by Yvonne* View Post
Obviously lock ups are not legal neither was the boost he was running at SCSN. I hesitate to banter back and forth with clutch guys (again) LOL but the numbers in the last few years tell the tale.

The official MPH record for NHRA Pro Mod is 258.71 set in 2011 by Melanie Troxel. Back in February of this year (2016) Coughlin ran 259 at the warm up event in NHRA trim. He did that with less bore space, smaller valves and less boost than Troxel ran but at the SAME weight. That’s how good the converter technology has gotten. Whatever advantage they’d gain (which again I don’t believe there is an advantage in this case) would be lost in a myriad of problems the biggest of which would be lack of consistency. No matter how good the clutch guy is, you won't improve on consistency. And they would likely slow down on the tree, something turbo drivers do not need either. At this point they aren't looking to up mph and get hit with a rule change either IMO.

If clutches were really the way to go, the 1/8 turbo guys would have been all over that by now. The converter tech especially the lock ups are now and will continue to be the #1 choice.
Converters became the choice of the 1/8th mile guys because even before lockups, they could run them without really seeing the weaknesses because they only make half a run.

The other thing about converters is you're dead on about the consistency. Nobody mentions that they can take a turd of a driver and make them look great. In a converter setup, the equipment is the cause of consistency. With a pedal clutch, the driver is the major cause of consistency. Not all drivers are created equal and the biggest cause for never figuring out the clutch is how the driver treats the clutch during burnout, backing up, staging and how they swap feet. There is still some of that with the converters, as to how hot the fluid gets before launch, but the effects are not as reaching as they are with a clutch. A Tuner's dream is to either have the best driver in the world, or take the driver out of the equation as much as possible, which the latter has been the case with Pro Mods (and a lot of other classes for that matter).
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  #23  
Old 12-29-2016
mmcc9000 mmcc9000 is offline
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Supercharged Pro Mods look more badass than the others. Especially those '57 Chevy entries (which we sadly hardly ever see anymore).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3e14372766.jpg

And thank you to Chip King for his awesome low-cut '70 Charger!

http://larryjeffersracecars.com/wp-c...rks-promod.jpg
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  #24  
Old 12-29-2016
Yvonne* Yvonne* is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAtAce View Post
Converters became the choice of the 1/8th mile guys because even before lockups, they could run them without really seeing the weaknesses because they only make half a run.

The other thing about converters is you're dead on about the consistency. Nobody mentions that they can take a turd of a driver and make them look great. In a converter setup, the equipment is the cause of consistency. With a pedal clutch, the driver is the major cause of consistency. Not all drivers are created equal and the biggest cause for never figuring out the clutch is how the driver treats the clutch during burnout, backing up, staging and how they swap feet. There is still some of that with the converters, as to how hot the fluid gets before launch, but the effects are not as reaching as they are with a clutch. A Tuner's dream is to either have the best driver in the world, or take the driver out of the equation as much as possible, which the latter has been the case with Pro Mods (and a lot of other classes for that matter).
Whewwwwweeeeeee! There’s how you make friends and influence people! Hahahahhahaha We’ll have to agree to disagree here but I will say one last thing. A tuner who spends his time trying to take the driver out of the equation will never be a truly great tuner. Or leader, for that matter. It’s a team sport.

Happy New Year Clutch Guy!
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  #25  
Old 12-29-2016
HEMI_guy HEMI_guy is offline
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Originally Posted by mmcc9000 View Post
And thank you to Chip King for his awesome low-cut '70 Charger!

http://larryjeffersracecars.com/wp-c...rks-promod.jpg
Chip's been my favorite P/M racer since his IHRA days with his Avenger. Mopar man to the bone. He's the Allen Johnson of P/M.
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  #26  
Old 12-29-2016
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comp 670 comp 670 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAtAce View Post
Converters became the choice of the 1/8th mile guys because even before lockups, they could run them without really seeing the weaknesses because they only make half a run.

The other thing about converters is you're dead on about the consistency. Nobody mentions that they can take a turd of a driver and make them look great. In a converter setup, the equipment is the cause of consistency. With a pedal clutch, the driver is the major cause of consistency. Not all drivers are created equal and the biggest cause for never figuring out the clutch is how the driver treats the clutch during burnout, backing up, staging and how they swap feet. There is still some of that with the converters, as to how hot the fluid gets before launch, but the effects are not as reaching as they are with a clutch. A Tuner's dream is to either have the best driver in the world, or take the driver out of the equation as much as possible, which the latter has been the case with Pro Mods (and a lot of other classes for that matter).
Well said Justin. All true.
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  #27  
Old 12-29-2016
HEMI_guy HEMI_guy is offline
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LOL.. the coolest clutch setup I've seen was a spring loaded pedal or lever that released with a starter solenoid operated by button on the sterring wheel. That was Skinny Kid's screw blown HEMI Hurst Olds. I think the spring was a hood hinge spring.
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  #28  
Old 12-29-2016
JustinAtAce JustinAtAce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvonne* View Post
Whewwwwweeeeeee! There’s how you make friends and influence people! Hahahahhahaha We’ll have to agree to disagree here but I will say one last thing. A tuner who spends his time trying to take the driver out of the equation will never be a truly great tuner. Or leader, for that matter. It’s a team sport.

Happy New Year Clutch Guy!
Love it. Happy New Year!! Sad part is I haven't had a dog in the clutch fight for years now, I just remember what I saw over the thousands of different runs I've looked at trying to help teams that were pulling their hair out. It is definitely a team sport, and as long as the driver is consistent, a good tuner and team can usually make it work and be fairly successful. But consider everything that goes in a pro mod these days, Outlaw or legal, that you can't have in say a Top Alcohol car. 2-step? Auto Shifter? Traction Control/Profiler? As my old friend from New Jersey says "I think Leahy even has a nut scratcher I can put on a timer in this thing now."

A lot of it is just technology taking over, much like timing control in the Alky cars, D-Boxes/autoshifters in bracket cars, and timing/clutch programming on the nitro cars. Cream still rises to the top, no matter the aides available. Pro Mods are tough enough to drive. All I meant by my comments is that the aides can take a driver that might otherwise really struggle to even get the car off the line, and bring them closer to a class average performance level. And if the aide helps your performance, why not use it? BUT, will you ever be as quick/fast as the car that can run consistently without the same aide(s)? I doubt it. The aides let the crew chief do what the driver would normally have to fix during the run to save it. Timing controller essentially pedals the car for the driver, two step takes away foot swap issues as well as revved up staging burn downs, auto-shifter can short shift for the driver or hold out as long as the crew chief wants. The aides also create a different tuning mentality, your idea of getting everything you can out of the track starts to change because all the aides really do is pull the reigns in on the engine/car. From there you learn to tune within your restraints(maybe I'll really hop it up and put 1 more degree back in it from 0.5 to 0.8 seconds). But if you send a hopped up, aggressive car and the driver fixes what they need to from the seat and you put a big number on the scoreboard, you're more likely to send the bomb again. You don't know any restraints at that point unless you smoke the tires at the hit or the driver comes back screaming that you almost killed them.
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  #29  
Old 12-30-2016
JeffinNY JeffinNY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcc9000 View Post
Supercharged Pro Mods look more badass than the others. Especially those '57 Chevy entries (which we sadly hardly ever see anymore).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3e14372766.jpg

And thank you to Chip King for his awesome low-cut '70 Charger!

http://larryjeffersracecars.com/wp-c...rks-promod.jpg
As far as Mopar Pro Mods, I would have to lean towards Pete Farber's blown '69 Daytona.
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2016
HEMI_guy HEMI_guy is offline
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Originally Posted by JeffinNY View Post
As far as Mopar Pro Mods, I would have to lean towards Pete Farber's blown '69 Daytona.
cool car. but tht body wouldn't exist if King hadn't made the molds.
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