Rumor: Fuelers Getting Blower Restrictions

Rumor: Fuelers Getting Blower Restrictions

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  • twintownterrortwintownterror Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    Willy I sent you an email about something relating to this.
  • HEMI_guyHEMI_guy Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    We are told NHRA wants to limit the ability of the superchargers to flow air to the rotors. The move, we are told, is expected to take five to six percent from the supercharger and they won’t be as efficient. However, the teams with the better superchargers should be only affected minimally.

    Still gotta believe restrictor plates under the hats would be the best solution over slowing the blowers down.
  • de31168de31168 Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    20 years too late in my opinion. But if we are gonna slow em down that much let's go back to 1320 for everyone!
  • WillyWilly Administrator
    edited October 2018
    Willy I sent you an email about something relating to this.

    Got it TTT.... Replied and forwarded.
  • anotheridiotanotheridiot Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    HEMI_guy wrote: »
    We are told NHRA wants to limit the ability of the superchargers to flow air to the rotors. The move, we are told, is expected to take five to six percent from the supercharger and they won’t be as efficient. However, the teams with the better superchargers should be only affected minimally.

    Still gotta believe restrictor plates under the hats would be the best solution over slowing the blowers down.

    That is what they are talking about though, right? restricting the airflow to the rotors.

    I thought they went too far allowing the development of the billet blower, once again, under the disguise of safety. I much prefer this move to the reduction of track prep because NHRA should be on the other side of the argument of these street racers and no prep races. To me reduction in track prep is closing that gap.
  • Imm ManImm Man Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    de31168 wrote: »
    20 years too late in my opinion. But if we are gonna slow em down that much let's go back to 1320 for everyone!

    A-bleeping-men. And, bring the good track prep back.
  • TwostepTwostep Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    Ronnie Milsap could see this coming. Reduced prep instantly slowed the dragsters to 3.80 with an occasional high 3.70 (at around 320mph) in ideal conditions...the floppers to 4.0's with an occasional high 3.90. Now after a few months of adjusting to it, the frontrunners are back to high 3.60s@330+ and the funnies are back in the mid 3.80s@330+.

    Garlits always favored the reduced prep idea because it brings the driver back into the equation and makes the CC's earn their pay, and I'm liking that. But if you just want to peel off some speed, there's one relatively simple way to accomplish that - 20% maximum blower overdrive. Dale Armstrong pushed that idea for years and nobody ever followed up on it. Everyone's setup would have to change and it would obsolete some parts, but it'll work.

    Still, the last national event I attended saw a 3.82/338 out of Robert Hight - one of the finest displays of raw power I've ever seen on a drag strip - and I'm thinking to myself, do we REALLY want to slow 'em down? :)
  • anotheridiotanotheridiot Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    Twostep wrote: »
    Still, the last national event I attended saw a 3.82/338 out of Robert Hight - one of the finest displays of raw power I've ever seen on a drag strip - and I'm thinking to myself, do we REALLY want to slow 'em down? :)

    Its really about reducing the exploding motors and bodies.

    You just have to believe the screws were turning in the crew chiefs minds about how they are going to combat that track prep situation.

    I really do not know what they are thinking. You reduce prep, you are more apt to break the tires loose and hit that limiter and grenade the motor. Long term, isnt there more of the chances of head trauma from that than hitting a wall? Eric Medlen should not just be remembered for an ice cream social, it was a scrambled brain.
  • slugbelchslugbelch Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    339.87
    Sonoma July 28, 2017


    More and more likely that we'll never see 340 in our lifetime...

    ... unless we see one of these rare Lagana type 1/4 mile thingy's:

    http://forum.competitionplus.com/showpost.php?p=204216&postcount=4
  • Stefan2k4Stefan2k4 Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think the track prep thing worked out pretty well, overall. It seemed to have kinda leveled the playing field a bit. The only problem I see was it appeared to be a one size fits all solution. What I mean by that, is it seems to me, you should take track temp into consideration when you decide how much you want to thin the VHT. When they started this it was back in the summer, and then at many events, especially those in hot climates, you had high track temperatures. Is 70% VHT on a hot track the same as 70% VHT on a cool track? I'm no expert on VHT, but my intuition says probably not. So, perhaps instead of having a fixed one size fits all formula, they need to be a little flexible and adjust it a bit to the expected temperatures and conditions. Maybe at some of the races back in the summer where track temps were astronomical, they could have thinned it a bit less. Who knows? Maybe now that it's fall and cooler, they could stand to thin it even more. Anyway, it would seem to me that this may have been the issue with the reduced track prep idea. It simply wasn't implemented as intelligently as it should have been.

    As for the blower restriction idea, how specifically will it be implemented? A restrictor plate on the inlet as someone mentioned earlier? Will that really work, or can it simply be countered by turning the blower faster? In nascar, the restrictor plate engines they run on the big tracks quickly evolved to get the most through the restrictor plate by running much higher compression ratios than their non-restricted counter-parts. Couldn't the teams simply turn the blowers faster and crank up the boost to counter this? Sure it would take more power to turn the shaft, but they'd be getting more power as well. And what if there were "leaks" ;) where the plate attaches to the blower? I believe Nascar had trouble with teams subverting the restrictor plates in this manner and had to test for those "leaks", by spraying ether around the point where manifold, plate, and carb joined while idling the engine. If there were such "leaks" the engine would rev up a bit. Anyway, an idea like this, would be harder to police and would open the door for teams to bend the rules.
  • TwostepTwostep Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    Stefan2k4 wrote: »
    As for the blower restriction idea, how specifically will it be implemented? A restrictor plate on the inlet as someone mentioned earlier? Will that Couldn't the teams simply turn the blowers faster and crank up the boost to counter this?

    Theoretically, yes, up to the point of diminishing returns...but realistically, no, because NHRA limits the blower OD to 50 percent except at Bandimere. And unless they're dialing them back because of crappy track conditions, I assume they're all running 50 right now.

    A couple of years ago they tried a combination of a 413CID engine, a much smaller fuel pump and 20% or so blower OD in someone's funny car - think it was either Pedregon or Force - and it ran 4.20s at about 290. For whatever reason, that idea didn't hang around very long.
  • darkpinodarkpino Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    in the end it will help the big dollar teams as they'll just turn up the wick a bit more on every other part.
    Can you imagine DSR for example who is buying what? 64 blowers? They can put it on a dyno and check which one is best and keep that for example the countdown.

    I think the track prep worked out pretty good, if the teams are getting back to 'old' speeds just thin it even more
  • HEMI_guyHEMI_guy Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    darkpino wrote: »
    in the end it will help the big dollar teams as they'll just turn up the wick a bit more on every other part.
    Can you imagine DSR for example who is buying what? 64 blowers? They can put it on a dyno and check which one is best and keep that for example the countdown.

    I think the track prep worked out pretty good, if the teams are getting back to 'old' speeds just thin it even more

    Yeah, that'll be real popular with the sportsman racers.
  • a21studa21stud Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    HEMI_guy wrote: »
    Yeah, that'll be real popular with the sportsman racers.

    At the small tire races they change the track setup between classes for specific classes. Doesn't seem to take any longer than what NHRA does between classes now. There are now many "traction masters" around the country who can make a track repeatable for various class needs.

    The can have too much glue for any class other than maybe the nitro classes now. Course the nitro classes are going lighter glue anyway for better competition and to get away from the potential of 335+ mph tire shredding and too short of shutdown. Cost savings to the teams is good now that they seemed to have learned how to keep the body on.
  • JACLARKEJACLARKE Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    HEMI_guy wrote: »
    We are told NHRA wants to limit the ability of the superchargers to flow air to the rotors. The move, we are told, is expected to take five to six percent from the supercharger and they won’t be as efficient. However, the teams with the better superchargers should be only affected minimally.

    Still gotta believe restrictor plates under the hats would be the best solution over slowing the blowers down.

    Why does the NHRA make everything so difficult? The reduction of VHT would seem to me to be a safety hazzard. These cars need traction for more than speed...they need to control them!!! Now, if the supercharger "Rumors" are true, how are they going to control/enforce the new rules? Are they going to inspect 100 superchargers per race!!?? If you want to slow them down take fuel away...run any blower, rods, pistons, barrel valves, or heads that you want...if the fuel isn't there you aren't going anywhere!!! Go back to 80 Gallon pumps and leave the guys alone!!! Everything else will fall into place INCLUDING how much air they can pump into the motors!!!! And fuel pumps are easy to check......
  • TwostepTwostep Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    JACLARKE wrote: »
    Now, if the supercharger "Rumors" are true, how are they going to control/enforce the new rules? Are they going to inspect 100 superchargers per race!!?? If you want to slow them down take fuel away...run any blower, rods, pistons, barrel valves, or heads that you want...if the fuel isn't there you aren't going anywhere!!! Go back to 80 Gallon pumps and leave the guys alone!!!

    All the more reason for a 20% OD if you're determined to slow the field. Taking a bunch of fuel away from one of the current configurations almost guarantees leanout conditions and a LOT of expensive damage...with lower OD, you can't 'cheat' it...if you try to cram 80-100gpm levels of fuel into an engine on 20 percent instead of the current 50, it'll simply make it fat as a water buffalo on steroids, not burn it up..the CC's will learn to tune to the less boost and it'll run fine, just with less oomph...
  • HEMI_guyHEMI_guy Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    JACLARKE wrote: »
    The reduction of VHT would seem to me to be a safety hazzard. These cars need traction for more than speed...they need to control them!!!

    Which is why, if this rumor is true, I think they're looking at the blowers as a tool to slow them.

    I don't know how they do it at small tire events but changing track prep per class would just be a giant hassle. Especially when, as per the rumor, they are only concerned with slowing T/F. I would think they would need two separate spray systems for both mixes.
  • twintownterrortwintownterror Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    HEMI_guy wrote: »
    Which is why, if this rumor is true...

    If the rumors are true all of these changes are part of a plan to be back to 1320’ by 2020...

    If that is true what are we going to complain about?
  • StockerGTPStockerGTP Member
    edited October 2018
    If the rumors are true all of these changes are part of a plan to be back to 1320’ by 2020...

    If that is true what are we going to complain about?



    Oh....I am sure we will find something. ;)
  • a21studa21stud Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    If the rumors are true all of these changes are part of a plan to be back to 1320’ by 2020...

    If that is true what are we going to complain about?

    Fuel bill is up 20%!! Al Gore will push to eliminate all dragstrips!
  • JACLARKEJACLARKE Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    Twostep wrote: »
    All the more reason for a 20% OD if you're determined to slow the field. Taking a bunch of fuel away from one of the current configurations almost guarantees leanout conditions and a LOT of expensive damage...with lower OD, you can't 'cheat' it...if you try to cram 80-100gpm levels of fuel into an engine on 20 percent instead of the current 50, it'll simply make it fat as a water buffalo on steroids, not burn it up..the CC's will learn to tune to the less boost and it'll run fine, just with less oomph...

    Yes, of course you couldn't JUST take an 80 Gallon pump and and use it with the set up that they are running now. That is why i said with the 80 gallon pump everything else would fall into place including how much air they could pump into the motor.....Therefore having to back everything down!! Once again, if the fuel isn't there you can't go anywhere.AND with 80 gallon pumps you're gonna hurt alot less parts.
  • surfer121surfer121 Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    News Flash---

    There are already blowers on the market and used that have removable plates to adjust the size of the inlet opening.

    There hasnt been a restiction implemented that the teams havnt figured a way around or found out that the restiction works better then what they were running before
  • JACLARKEJACLARKE Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    surfer121 wrote: »
    News Flash---

    There are already blowers on the market and used that have removable plates to adjust the size of the inlet opening.

    There hasnt been a restiction implemented that the teams havnt figured a way around or found out that the restiction works better then what they were running before

    Exactly.......but if you take the fuel away that limits your options/performance. Going from the 110 gallon pumps back to the 80 gallon is ALOT OF FUEL!!!
  • surfer121surfer121 Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    The question becomes--- are they using all the fuel with the 110's or are they returning fuel back to the tank to where they only need all the fuel from the 80's and none returned? They have fuel flow meters and know the exact amount that goes thru the motor
  • TwostepTwostep Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    surfer121 wrote: »
    The question becomes--- are they using all the fuel with the 110's or are they returning fuel back to the tank to where they only need all the fuel from the 80's and none returned? They have fuel flow meters and know the exact amount that goes thru the motor

    Not being a fuel car tuner I'd have no idea - although I suspect there's a considerable amount of cushion built in. The last thing you want to do is run one of those engines too lean.
  • Yvonne*Yvonne* Super Moderator
    edited October 2018
    surfer121 wrote: »
    News Flash---

    There are already blowers on the market and used that have removable plates to adjust the size of the inlet opening.

    There hasnt been a restiction implemented that the teams havnt figured a way around or found out that the restiction works better then what they were running before

    ^^^Winner!

    I would venture the use of restrictions has actually done MORE for educating tuners on ET's and MPH improvements and discovery than just about anything else. LOL
  • HEMI_guyHEMI_guy Senior Member
    edited October 2018
    surfer121 wrote: »
    News Flash---

    There are already blowers on the market and used that have removable plates to adjust the size of the inlet opening.

    There hasnt been a restiction implemented that the teams havnt figured a way around or found out that the restiction works better then what they were running before

    Aside from the 65 sq. in. blades on the hat, when and what were these restrictions?

    They may have found ways to benefit from a smaller inlets, but it's not like there isn't a point of no return on it choking the engine.
  • JACLARKEJACLARKE Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    surfer121 wrote: »
    The question becomes--- are they using all the fuel with the 110's or are they returning fuel back to the tank to where they only need all the fuel from the 80's and none returned? They have fuel flow meters and know the exact amount that goes thru the motor

    The tanks are pretty much bone dry when they complete the run. They also lean the motor out as it's going down the track because the load on the motor is decreasing.....fuel motors NEED load (resistance). The fuel is also used to cool the motor, hence the raw fuel belching from the zoomies at the starting line.
  • ReinhartReinhart Member
    edited October 2018
    JACLARKE wrote: »
    The tanks are pretty much bone dry when they complete the run.

    That is incorrect, there will be at least a couple of gallons in the tank after the run. If they run out of fuel they explode. They can't take the chance of the fuel pump gulping air so there has to be enough fuel in the tank to ensure that doesn't happen.

    Alan
  • JACLARKEJACLARKE Junior Member
    edited October 2018
    Reinhart wrote: »
    That is incorrect, there will be at least a couple of gallons in the tank after the run. If they run out of fuel they explode. They can't take the chance of the fuel pump gulping air so there has to be enough fuel in the tank to ensure that doesn't happen.

    Alan

    My mistake.... Sorry!!!

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